>> YEAH, I DON’T KNOW WHAT POLLS HE’S REFERRING TO. THEY’RE NOT THE ONES THAT WE’VE BEEN SAYING, BUT OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YAMICHE, FOR THAT. JOINING ME NOW, TIMOTHY HAFEY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND FORMER LEAD INVESTIGATOR TO THE HOUSE JANUARY 6TH COMMITTEE. MYLES TAYLOR, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
AND ADAM WREN, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR POLITICO. ADAM HAS INTERVIEWED FAR RIGHT ACTIVIST LAURA LOOMER, WHO SAYS THE EPSTEIN MATTER COULD CONSUME THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY. WE’RE GETTING INTO THAT, AND I THANK YOU GUYS FOR ALL BEING HERE. SO TIM TRUMP IS TRYING THIS MULTI-PRONGED EFFORT TO QUELL, IF HE CAN, THE MAGA OUTRAGE. BUT HE ADMITS THE EPSTEIN GRAND JURY TRANSCRIPTS WILL NOT GIVE THE BASE WHAT IT WANTS.
AND AT THE SAME TIME, HIS LAWSUIT AGAINST THE WALL STREET JOURNAL THAT COULD JUST BRING DETAILS OF HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH EPSTEIN OUT FRONT AND CENTER.
AND YOU HEARD US PLAY WHAT ALAN DERSHOWITZ SAID. DO YOU ENVISION A SCENARIO WHERE GHISLAINE MAXWELL IS GIVEN USE IMMUNITY TO TESTIFY IN CONGRESS? >> YEAH. ALEX.
>> IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL. >> WHAT THIS. >> JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OR THIS WHITE HOUSE WILL DO WITH RESPECT TO THIS STORY. TO ME, THIS IS THIS REVEALS THE STARK DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE STANDARDS BY WHICH POLITICIANS MAKE STATEMENTS VERSUS THE STANDARDS BY WHICH LAWYERS DO. THERE HAS BEEN TALK FOR YEARS ABOUT SOME CONSPIRACY, SOME SEX TRAFFICKING CABAL PROSECUTORS AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CAN ONLY TALK ABOUT FACTS AND EVIDENCE.
SO TO THE EXTENT THERE’S A DESIRE BY THE PRESIDENT OR OTHERS TO COMPARE WHAT POLITICIANS HAVE SAID TO THE FACTS AND THE EVIDENCE, COMPLETE TRANSPARENCY AND REVELATION WILL WILL BE IMPORTANT.
BUT BUT WHETHER OR NOT THEY DO OR DON’T LOOK, I WOULD BE NOT SPEAKING AS A LAWYER, TRAFFICKING IN FACTS, ABLE TO GIVE YOU ANY PREDICTION ABOUT WHERE THIS IS GOING. >> BUT I’M CURIOUS, JUST GUT REACTION HERE. GIVEN THE FACT THAT YOU WORKED ON THE JANUARY 6TH HEARINGS, WOULD THAT HEARING POTENTIALLY BE A BIGGER SPECTACLE. >> IF GLENN MAXWELL WERE TO BE GIVEN IMMUNITY?
WELL, IT DEPENDS ON THE FACTS, ALEX. AGAIN, THERE IS A LOT OF CHATTER BY POLITICIANS AND OTHERS ABOUT SOME LARGER PATTERN OF NEFARIOUS ACTIVITY, AND I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE FACTS ARE. THIS COULD HAVE BEEN A SEXUAL PREDATOR WHO IS LURING YOUNG WOMEN FOR HIS OWN SEXUAL GRATIFICATION, AND THAT OF OTHERS. DOES THAT MEET THE STANDARD OF THIS DEEP STATE CONSPIRACY THAT WE’VE BEEN HEARING ABOUT FOR YEARS, FROM SOME FOLKS ON THE RIGHT? MAYBE THE ATTENTION PAID TO GHISLAINE MAXWELL WOULD BE TREMENDOUS, BUT I’M NOT SURE WHAT THE FACTS ARE RIGHT AND THE FACTS GOVERN, NOT POLITICAL RHETORIC.
SO WE’LL SEE WHAT THE FACTS ARE. MAYBE BECAUSE, AGAIN, PROSECUTORS IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND GRAND JURIES AND JUDGES EVALUATING THE RELEASE ARE EVALUATING FACTS, NOT SUPPOSITION. >> SO, MILES. SENATOR DICK DURBIN SAYS FBI PERSONNEL WERE TOLD TO FLAG ANYTHING IN THE EPSTEIN FILES MENTIONING TRUMP. AND HE’S ASKING KASH PATEL ABOUT REPORTS THAT HE WAS PRESSURED BY BONDY TO PUT 1000 PERSONNEL ON 24 HOUR SHIFTS TO MINE ROUGHLY 100,000 EPSTEIN RECORDS.
WHAT DOES THIS SUGGEST TO YOU? >> THIS IS. >> HUGE, ALEX. >> I MEAN, THIS. >> DATA POINT TO ME.
REEKS OF. >> A. >> COVER UP. >> NOW. >> I’M NOT.
>> NECESSARILY SAYING. >> THAT THE PRESIDENT. >> WAS ENGAGED IN ANY. CRIMINAL ACTIVITY. >> BUT IT SEEMS REASONABLE TO.
>> THINK THAT IF THIS IS INDEED. >> TRUE. >> THAT THERE. >> WAS SOMETHING. >> FOUND IN THE COURSE OF THE INVESTIGATION OR THE FILES.
>> THAT THE PRESIDENT DIDN’T. >> WANT TO MAKE PUBLIC.
AGAIN, IT DOESN’T HAVE TO BE CRIMINAL. >> IT COULD. >> JUST BE EMBARRASSING.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THE BIRTHDAY LETTER REPORTED BY THE WASHINGTON BY THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, FROM DONALD TRUMP TO JEFFREY EPSTEIN, THAT ALLEGED BIRTHDAY LETTER IS ITSELF VERY EMBARRASSING, BUT NOT NECESSARILY CRIMINAL. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THE KEY WORD SEARCH IS LOOKING FOR TRUMP’S NAME. I THINK STRONGLY SUGGEST THAT SOMEWHERE SOMETHING COULD HAVE BEEN FOUND THAT HAS AFFECTED HIS BEHAVIOR IN THIS CASE. NOW, IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHERE THIS IS GOING, ALEX, I WOULD SAY WE HAVE A PRETTY GOOD COMPARISON, WHICH IS GO BACK TO THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND LOOK WHAT THE RUSSIA INVESTIGATION DID TO THE PRESIDENT’S PSYCHE. I SAW IT UP CLOSE WHILE HE WAS PRESIDENT, HOW IT AFFECTED HIM.
NOW, THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE EPSTEIN CASE WILL DISTRACT DONALD TRUMP FROM SOME OF THE MORE EGREGIOUS POLICIES HE WAS PURSUING.
THE BAD NEWS IS IT’S GOING TO MAKE DONALD TRUMP DESPERATE TO CREATE OTHER DISTRACTIONS BECAUSE HE DOESN’T WANT PEOPLE TO FOCUS ON THIS. AND ONE OF THOSE DISTRACTIONS HAS BEEN CONTINUING HIS WAR ON THE FREE PRESS WITH THIS SUIT AGAINST THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. AND I THINK THAT WE’RE GOING TO SEE THAT CRACKDOWN EXTEND FURTHER AS THE PRESIDENT GETS ANGRIER AT THE NEWS MEDIA FOR COVERING THIS STORY. >> SO YOUR SUGGESTION, BASED ON WHAT YOU WITNESSED THERE, IS THAT THE PRESIDENT, HE’S JUST GOING TO START FLAILING, PUTTING ANYTHING OUT THERE FOR DISTRACTION.
>> ANYTHING. I’LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF IT, ALEX. I MEAN, I CAN REMEMBER THAT WE HAD DURING THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WE PUSHED FOR THE LARGEST REORGANIZATION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY SINCE ITS CREATION.
AND WE WERE IN THE OVAL OFFICE SUPPOSED TO TALK ABOUT CYBERSECURITY AND PROTECTING THE COUNTRY AGAINST WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. THE PRESIDENT WAS SIGNING BILLS TO THAT EFFECT INTO LAW, AND INSTEAD HE USHERS THE PRESS PRESS IN.
AND WHAT IS HE TALK ABOUT? HE TALKS ABOUT THE WITCH HUNT THAT HE CALLED IT THE RUSSIA INVESTIGATION. THIS IS THE NEW WITCH HUNT. WHEN THE PRESIDENT IS SUPPOSED TO BE FOCUSED ON NATIONAL SECURITY AND PROTECTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, HE’S GOING TO BE OBSESSING ABOUT THE EPSTEIN INVESTIGATION AND OBSESSING ABOUT GETTING REVENGE AGAINST THE PEOPLE WHO’VE SHOWN A LIGHT ON HIS INVOLVEMENT. >> I’M JUST GOING TO MIND THIS ONE MORE SECOND WITH YOU.
JUST YOUR OBSERVATION. WHEN HE’S DOING THAT, DOES HE KNOW WHAT HE’S DOING? IS IT INTENTIONAL, OR IS IT JUST AS IF HE’S JUST SPEAKING ANYTHING THAT COMES TO MIND? >> WELL, I, I WOULDN’T I WOULDN’T GIVE DONALD TRUMP TOO MUCH CREDIT FOR BEING TERRIBLY STRATEGIC WHEN IT COMES TO THESE THINGS.
I THINK HE’S A LOT BLUNTER.
HE DEPLOYS THESE WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRACTION BECAUSE HE KNOWS THAT PEOPLE WILL CHASE THE NEXT SHINY OBJECT. AND SO WMD ARE GOING TO BE ON HIS MIND. THAT MAY BE GOOD FOR DONALD TRUMP TRYING TO SHIFT THE NARRATIVE AROUND, BUT THAT’S BAD FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BECAUSE HE’S PLAYING A DANGEROUS GAME WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO TRY TO CREATE THOSE DISTRACTIONS. >> WHILE SITTING IN THE OVAL OFFICE. OKAY, SO, ADAM, I’M CURIOUS YOUR SENSE ON HOW THIS IS HITTING TRUMP SUPPORTERS AND THE MAGA WORLD AND HOW WOULD THEY FEEL ABOUT THIS IDEA TO GIVE GHISLAINE MAXWELL IMMUNITY TO TESTIFY BEFORE CONGRESS?
WELL.
>> WHEN. >> I SPOKE TO LAURA LOOMER A NUMBER OF TIMES. >> THIS PAST. >> WEEK, SHE WAS ADAMANT THAT THIS IS ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, THREATENING TO CONSUME.
>> HIS PRESIDENCY. >> AND WE’RE. >> ALREADY SEEING SOME OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN TERMS OF EVENTS LOOMING IN THE FUTURE TAKING PLACE WHERE THIS WHERE THAT WILL HAPPEN. WE HAVE THE DISCHARGE PETITION IN THE HOUSE WHERE IT’S POSSIBLE THAT IN A SYMBOLIC GESTURE, THE HOUSE COULD COULD VOTE TO HAVE ALL OF THE EPSTEIN FILES RELEASED.
AND SO THAT IS LOOMING OUT PAST AUGUST ALREADY.
THAT TAKES US ANOTHER TWO WEEKS DEEPER INTO THIS. AND SO, YOU KNOW, I AND ESSENTIALLY YOU ALSO HAVE THE WALL STREET JOURNAL SUIT HAPPENING, WHICH PROMISES TO MAKE THIS CONTINUE BEING A STORY. AND SO HER CONTENTION IS THAT THIS IS, AS MILES SAID, VERY SIMILAR TO RUSSIAGATE. AND THE FACT THAT IT’S GOING TO TAKE WEEKS AND MONTHS OF HIS PRESIDENCY. AND I THINK HIS SUPPORTERS WOULD BE HAPPY TO SEE GHISLAINE MAXWELL TESTIFY ON THIS AND, AND LET THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY.
>> LOOK, LOOMER. LOOMER GOES THROUGH THE CONSPIRACY RABBIT HOLE, AS YOU KNOW, OR DOWN IT, I SHOULD SAY SHE MAKES ALL SORTS OF ANTI-IMMIGRANT AND RACIST POSTS.
SHE ESSENTIALLY BROKE THAT STORY ABOUT DAN BONGINO THREATENING TO QUIT OVER ALL THIS, CALLED FOR TRUMP TO APPOINT A SPECIAL COUNSEL. BUT WHAT SPECIFICALLY IS SHE INTERESTED IN SEEING FROM THESE FILES? >> SHE WANTS TO SEE, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE KEY THINGS THAT TRUMP RODE TO OFFICE WAS THE SENSE THAT ELITES WERE GETTING A DIFFERENT JUSTICE SYSTEM THAN THE REST OF AMERICA, AND SHE WANTS TRUMP TO END THAT.
AND THE PROBLEM IS HERE IS THAT HE IS POTENTIALLY IMPLICATED IN ALL OF THIS, GIVEN THE REPORTING THAT POLITICO HASN’T MATCHED, BY THE WAY, FROM THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SHE WANTS TO SEE ROOTED OUT. AND WHAT’S NOT CLEAR TO ME IS HOW SHE SQUARES THE IDEA OF AN INDEPENDENT PROSECUTOR, WHICH SHE HAS CALLED FOR, AND WHICH OTHERS, LIKE STEVE BANNON, HAVE CALLED FOR A NUMBER OF TIMES, AND TO THE FACT THAT IF TRUMP WERE TO APPOINT, WHICH HE SAID HE’S NOT GOING TO DO, THAT WOULD ESSENTIALLY ADMIT THAT HE HAS SOME SORT OF BIAS IN THIS CASE.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK HER MOTIVE HERE IS TO, TO SEE THE ELITE FACE THE SAME JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT, THAT THE REST OF AMERICA DOES. >> YOU KNOW, ADAM, SHE HAS KIND OF A SHADOWY REPUTATION.
SHE’S A SHADOWY FIGURE. I’M CURIOUS WHAT IT IS AND HOW SHE’S ABLE TO MAINTAIN SUCH CLOSE TIES WITHIN THE WHITE HOUSE AND DIRECTLY TO THE PRESIDENT.
>> WELL, PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF HAS PRAISED HER COURAGE. SHE SHE DOESN’T SEEM TO HAVE ANY SORT OF OUTSIDE INFLUENCES BEYOND HER IDEOLOGICAL PROJECT GUIDING HER. AND HE HE LIKES THAT.
HE’S IMPRESSED BY IT. WE’VE SEEN THAT. AND OF COURSE, SHE’S SHE’S BUILT A RELATIONSHIP WITH VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE, VISITING HIM LAST MONTH, ACCORDING TO SOME REPORTING AT THE AT THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE BUILDING. AND SO, YOU KNOW, SHE IS CLOSE TO THE TO THE WHITE HOUSE, DESPITE SOME WHITE HOUSE AIDES APPREHENSION ABOUT HER PRESENCE IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION. MANY OF THEM DON’T DON’T LIKE IT.
BUT TRUMP LISTENS TO HER AND HE SEES A FEARLESS OPERATOR AND THINKS THAT’S QUITE SOMETHING. >> SO, TIM, YOU HAVE SENATOR RON WYDEN, WHO WANTS EPSTEIN’S BANKING RECORDS MADE PUBLIC.
LET’S PLAY SOME OF THIS. >> SOMEWHERE IN THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT, MR. PRESIDENT, LOCKED AWAY IN A CABINET DRAWER IS A BIG EPSTEIN FILE THAT’S FULL OF ACTIONABLE INFORMATION.
FOLLOW THE MONEY DETAILS. 4725 WIRE TRANSFERS, ADDING UP TO NEARLY $1.1 BILLION FLOWING IN AND OUT OF JUST ONE OF MR. EPSTEIN’S BANK ACCOUNTS. >> SO, TIM, HAVE INVESTIGATORS ALREADY GONE THROUGH EPSTEIN’S BANKING RECORDS?
AND CAN THOSE BE COMPLICATED SOMEWHAT BY THE FACT EPSTEIN WAS ALSO A MONEY MANAGER FOR WEALTHY PEOPLE? >> YES, ABSOLUTELY.
ALEX, IT’S UNCLEAR HOW MUCH OF THAT INFORMATION, ASSUMING THAT IT EXISTS, HAS ALREADY BEEN REVIEWED, OR HAS IT SOMEHOW BEEN SUPPRESSED. AND THIS COMPLICATES THE PUBLIC DESIRE FOR TRANSPARENCY, BECAUSE IF THERE’S AN ONGOING INVESTIGATION, THEN IT IS PROBLEMATIC TO RELEASE GRAND JURY TESTIMONY OR TO CALL A WITNESS TO A PUBLIC CONGRESSIONAL HEARING WITH USE IMMUNITY. I DON’T KNOW IF THERE’S ANY ACTIVE INVESTIGATION INVOLVING THESE WIRE TRANSFERS OR ANYTHING ELSE RELATED TO JEFFREY EPSTEIN.
IF THERE’S NOT, THEN THERE’S A VERY STRONG PUBLIC INTEREST IN TRANSPARENCY AND RELEASE. IF THE MATERIAL. SENATOR WYDEN IS TALKING ABOUT HAS BEEN REVIEWED AND HAS NOT RESULTED IN ANY CRIMINAL CHARGES.
THEN AGAIN, IT’S ALL PART OF THE PUBLIC INTEREST IN TRANSPARENCY. FACTS MATTER.
LET’S SEE WHAT THE FACTS ARE AND DISPEL THIS NOTION OF WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS OR WASN’T SOME DEEP STATE CABAL. BUT IF THAT STUFF IS NEW AND IT HASN’T BEEN REVIEWED, THEN IT MAKES IT A LOT HARDER TO RELEASE.
